12 replies to this topic

[dorlomin]

I am trying to put together a FOI request to get the police costs for a festival (Glade 2009) to see what they account as costs and what those costs were.

My current wording is "can you provide a breakdown of the costs for Hampshire police in policing Glade Festival 2009".

Do any of the festival orginisers here or others have any advice on this especially on narrowing the language?

I intend to use it in conjuntion with this document.....


http://www.polfig.co...ll_document.pdf

[naarjtie]

Hey there, are you - or have you spoken to - a Mr Milliken who's doing research in the same field? If you are, hello, if you aren't, I'll put the two of you in touch.

(edit - didn't see the document at the end of your post.. hard to miss!)

Edited by naarjtie, 17 May 2010 - 05:16 AM.

[dorlomin]

naarjtie, on May 17 2010, 12:23 AM, said:

Hey there, are you - or have you spoken to - a Mr Milliken who's doing research in the same field? If you are, hello, if you aren't, I'll put the two of you in touch.

(edit - didn't see the document at the end of your post.. hard to miss!)

No idea who they are but any help would be welcome.

I have found this template from the Guardian so Ill be using this.

Quote

Your address
Town/city
postcode
Email
Telephone number




Freedom of Information Officer
Open government section
Department
Organisation's address
Town/City
Post code

[Insert date]

Dear [Enter name],

I am writing to make an open government request for all the information to which I am entitled under the freedom of information act. In order to assist you with this request, I am outlining my query as specifically as possible. If however this request is too wide or too unclear, I would be grateful if you could contact me as I understand that under the act, you are required to advise and assist requesters.

[Give a description of your request: the more specific, the better]

  

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing that you have received this request. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future.

Yours,

[Your name]

And I think getting info on a number of other festivals.


Another question as well, which 3 festivals would people say most resemble Glade in terms of size and policing requirement?

Edited by dorlomin, 17 May 2010 - 12:20 PM.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

dorlomin, on May 17 2010, 01:14 PM, said:

No idea who they are but any help would be welcome.

I have found this template from the Guardian so Ill be using this.


And I think getting info on a number of other festivals.


Another question as well, which 3 festivals would people say most resemble Glade in terms of size and policing requirement?

Have you contacted the festivals directly? I would think that they would be willing to readily provide the data.

I would be interested what security/stewarding provisions they had to put in place that would cost £220,000 as compared to the Police bill of £90,000

Edited by Rufus Gwertigan, 17 May 2010 - 12:33 PM.

[eFestivals]

dorlomin, on May 16 2010, 10:59 PM, said:

I am trying to put together a FOI request to get the police costs for a festival (Glade 2009) to see what they account as costs and what those costs were.

My current wording is "can you provide a breakdown of the costs for Hampshire police in policing Glade Festival 2009".

While I guess you probably won't agree with what numbers they might provide, the police will certainly be able to justify their own charges against their own criteria. So I'm not sure what you might achieve via getting the info you're after.

I think the issue is one that's much more basic: is it right that the police should charge for policing?

If they're charging for the likes of festivals and football matches on the basis that they're commercial events, why should charging stop at just those ad-hoc events? Why shouldn't (say) the likes of Tesco also be charged an extra policing fee, on the same basis that their ability to operate and so make money is facilitated by the existence and support of the police (and on from that, all of the criminal justice system)?

And conversely, if the likes of Tesco get policing for free, why should the likes of festivals and football matches be singled out for charges when Tesco are not? It's not a level playing field.

Having said that, there is a difference between Tesco and a festival - Tesco pays business rates on the premises they use for their commercial business, while the same might not (probably doesn't) apply to a festival site (tho it might do to a promoter's offices).

Meanwhile, Tesco and football match have the same basis - both pay business rates on their premises. So why are football clubs charged but not Tesco? Both provide a service for profit that's wanted by and of use to the local community.

So the business rates anomaly for festival sites is clearly something that needs addressing in some manner, but is direct charging by the police the real answer? Given that police services come from local authority budgets, and the local authority is the one that grants a festival's licence, surely if there is to be a charge then it should be charged by the local authority that then pays the police?

[eFestivals]

Rufus Gwertigan, on May 17 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

Have you contacted the festivals directly? I would think that they would be willing to readily provide the data.

I would be interested what security/stewarding provisions they had to put in place that would cost £220,000 as compared to the Police bill of £90,000

the problem with asking festivals is that they have a profit motive to provide false info if they're inclined to tell porkies. The same isn't really true if the data comes from the police forces.

[dorlomin]

I dont want to know how much the police charged, but how much they actually spent and how they justified the price.

I also want to compare a few festivals policing and see how different events are policed.

As a citizen I have a legal right to this information. What happens next depends on the information. Given the number of festivals going under, time to have a look at the polices contribution....

[pjadnoo]

Have you checked this website which may be of help:
what do they know?

It helps with FOI requests.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

dorlomin, on May 17 2010, 01:58 PM, said:

I dont want to know how much the police charged, but how much they actually spent and how they justified the price.

I also want to compare a few festivals policing and see how different events are policed.

As a citizen I have a legal right to this information. What happens next depends on the information. Given the number of festivals going under, time to have a look at the polices contribution....

It be worth writing to the Police Authority as well, as they may the accounts already.

[naarjtie]

dorlomin, on May 17 2010, 01:14 PM, said:

No idea who they are but any help would be welcome.

I was contacted on Friday by a Mr Milliken fellow doing a research project focused on analyzing the fairness of policing charges for local community events - there seem to be a lot of people digging around this now.

The justification in the price comes from the ACPO document that you linked to.

To quote from a PO recently (different force to Glade, mind):

    *  The charge per hour is a standard charge and is determined by a national formula which is defined in the "Association of Chief Police Officers Guidance on the Charging of Police Services" document. We charge full economic cost recovery in accordance with the guidance which is the approved methodology that has been used since 2005.

What is interesting though is that it would appear there is no relation between how many stewards and SIA security you may have working on your event - or even levels of public on site - and the levels of policing requested (it should be noted they can only ask you to request police attendance and cannot force it on you, but if you don't ask, you probably won't get the license).

Interestingly enough, policing levels for an event I'm working on have been set without the police requesting details of the levels of on-site security, so I'm unsure where their calculation on number of PO's required (and thus the total price) comes from - I see no mention of it in your linked document.

Here's a case study: An event I'm familiar with is doing Thursday night camping for 500 people. The police request a mimimum presence on site of 2 officers and a sergeant (any less than this is presumably against health and safety) at £60 per hour and £70 per hour respectively. It's now going to cost the event in the region of £4000 just for policing of the Thursday - not taking into account first aid or security. This makes the event completely unviable.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

naarjtie, on May 17 2010, 03:19 PM, said:

Here's a case study: An event I'm familiar with is doing Thursday night camping for 500 people. The police request a mimimum presence on site of 2 officers and a sergeant (any less than this is presumably against health and safety) at £60 per hour and £70 per hour respectively. It's now going to cost the event in the region of £4000 just for policing of the Thursday - not taking into account first aid or security. This makes the event completely unviable.

Have they included that in their license application or have they gone for a Temporary Event Notice seperately to cover the Thursday night?

[naarjtie]

Rufus Gwertigan, on May 17 2010, 04:54 PM, said:

Have they included that in their license application or have they gone for a Temporary Event Notice seperately to cover the Thursday night?

Included in their license app. Technically a TEN would cover it, but due to being on the same location as the festival and being connected with the festival there's no room for maneuver. The organiser ha been told it's non negotiable - the police will be there for the entire duration of the event or they will challenge the licence.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

eFestivals, on May 17 2010, 01:47 PM, said:

the problem with asking festivals is that they have a profit motive to provide false info if they're inclined to tell porkies. The same isn't really true if the data comes from the police forces.

dorlomin, on May 17 2010, 01:58 PM, said:

I dont want to know how much the police charged, but how much they actually spent and how they justified the price.

I also want to compare a few festivals policing and see how different events are policed.

As a citizen I have a legal right to this information. What happens next depends on the information. Given the number of festivals going under, time to have a look at the polices contribution....

Hampshire police have been quoted as saying

Quote

Despite this increase, the actual charge to the organisers for the policing of the event was less than half of the total bill.

I would be interested to see how this tallies.