59 replies to this topic

[ramragon]

most of the touts sign up to band mailing lists giving them early access to tickets before they go on public sale. admittedly there are usually just a small amount of pre sale available but i'm sure thats how the touts get tickets to sell on. I dont know what the soloution is to stop this happening, other than hitting sites like ebay which give the touts an open market with which to sell the tickets on at an inflated value. I know with the glastonbury tickets, photographs on them have helped stop the open market because people are less willing to shell out £200 on an event they may be turned away from.

Putting photographs on all tickets is impracticle and for your usual day to day gig wouldnt work, however i'm sure with the rediculous handling fees and postage fee's you get charged for each ticket they could afford to put them on !

It always amuses me when you get to a gig late and you see the touts desperately running around trying to offload their unsold tickets before they become valueless !

[HAPPY CHEF]

Ok,now forgive me if I'm being thick here but every year I've been to Guilfest thre have been tickets available on the gate and a sizeable number of touts around to. How does this work? Surely the touts must be selling at face value or below otherwise people would simply buy their tickets from the gate. The fact there are so many touts there means they are clearly doing some business,but how?

[Digi]

I don't really have a problem with touts - they've found a clever way to make alot of cash.  I wish the need for them didn't exist and ive begrudged every second of putting money into their pockets when i've used them in the past - but the need to see a gig has far outweighed my moral stance!     My morals have kicked in however whenever i've had a ticket to sell on - never for anything more than face value + booking fee + postage.  Karma is a bitch!

What I have a HUGE problem with is the ticket companies and the promoters who don't really give a shit about your average fan, who pretty much could erradicate the need for fans to buy from touts and who, as long as they are making a healthy profit, don't particularly care who they sell to

Putting photos on every ticket or making every ticket 'will call' with ID at the box office would go someway to putting a stop to it - it'd be interesting to see exactly how much ticket prices would increase to pay for it

[farewellandgoodnight]

HAPPY CHEF, on Apr 14 2010, 08:49 AM, said:

Ok,now forgive me if I'm being thick here but every year I've been to Guilfest thre have been tickets available on the gate and a sizeable number of touts around to. How does this work? Surely the touts must be selling at face value or below otherwise people would simply buy their tickets from the gate. The fact there are so many touts there means they are clearly doing some business,but how?

Damage control basically and they probably are selling at a loss but they've also probably been making a killing in the weeks leading up to the event. The tickets you'll see them selling in this case will be the ones they've been unable to offload and are trying to get rid of to avoid losing too much money.

Digi, on Apr 14 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

I wish the need for them didn't exist and ive begrudged every second of putting money into their pockets when i've used them in the past - but the need to see a gig has far outweighed my moral stance!

The need for them doesn't exist really. They create an artificial need by buying up large numbers of tickets that would otherwise have been sold to real fans at face value.

Digi, on Apr 14 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

Putting photos on every ticket or making every ticket 'will call' with ID at the box office would go someway to putting a stop to it - it'd be interesting to see exactly how much ticket prices would increase to pay for it

According to Michael in the youtube clip it's no more than about a quid a ticket. This may be due to volume discount on the large numbers of tickets however but any tour regularly sells more tickets than any festival so if anything it would cost less to implement these measures on regular gigs.

Edited by farewellandgoodnight, 14 April 2010 - 09:08 AM.

[Digi]

farewellandgoodnight, on Apr 14 2010, 10:03 AM, said:

The need for them doesn't exist really. They create an artificial need by buying up large numbers of tickets that would otherwise have been sold to real fans at face value.

It exists because ticketbastard et al allow it to.  It could all so easily be stopped by them but they unfortunately don't really give two hoots as they proved last year by not engaging in talks with government.  OK, so the touts might have very dubious morals... but I find the morals of big corporations FAR more dodgy

Quote

According to Michael in the youtube clip it's no more than about a quid a ticket. This may be due to volume discount on the large numbers of tickets however but any tour regularly sells more tickets than any festival so if anything it would cost less to implement these measures on regular gigs.

I'd quite happily pay a quid a ticket... Beats paying stupid amounts on ebay

*Yay me - I've just figured out how to do the multiple quote thing*

[DougalMcGuire]

Interesting points made throughout this thread, I'm amazed so many are standing up for the touting process as though it's a fair and legitimate way of making money. This supply and demand argument that has been brought up so many times is absolute and utter bollocks, the ticket is worth the price dictated by the promoter and printed on the ticket.

If someone stood inside your local supermarkets 10 minutes before they opened every day (ignoring the 24 hour openers!) and bought all the milk, then set up a stall outside selling it for £5 a pint, does that make it worth more? In GCSE economics terms maybe, but in the real world the word extortion has been used already on here and it's bang on.  

Quote

I can't stand it. A huge proportion of tickets are bought up by touts with the sole aim of selling them on. I've even been to gigs which supply far exceeded demand. At the Foo Fighters acoustic gig in London a few years back the gig sold out in a minute, yet half the venue was empty. It was clearly because loads of people thought it'd be a great idea to buy the tickets and ebay them, but then couldn't shift them because so many people had the same idea. It ruins the atmosphere of the gig, costs goers loads and creates a black market.

This is spot on. I've been to gigs where tickets have been sold on ebay for £4 and £5 because the promoter either got it wrong when deciding the size of the venue or they knew the genuine fans missed out because of the touts or skimming process, people were there because the tickets were cheap and they thought why not? Didn't make for a good atmosphere in the slightest.

Supply and demand comes into play when the venues are decided, the size of the arenas/clubs/stadiums is dictated by the amount of tickets they think they will sell. Unfortunately the promoters (who also are completely tied in with the arena owners) are completely involved in the process, it's gone far past the bloke outside the gates with half a dozen tickets obtained by getting up early and queuing outside the venue. (see link below)

Quote

Companies aren't allowed to buy up tickets, so don't know where you got that one from! we're talking about touts not the likes of seatwave etc!

Don't be so naive,     Anyone who believes the hundreds of Reading tickets that magically appear on Viagogo every year within seconds of them going on sale are just people trying to make a quick couple of hundred quid on two tickets should have a read of this post by Trent Reznor of NIN, I think it's an amazingly honest post and makes for a very interesting read:

Trent's Post


This is also why front row seats are now next to impossible to buy, accounts for the lack of atmosphere down the front at some gigs compared to years ago, and allows for the plethora of 'getyouroverpricedfrontrowseatshere.com' websites that appear at the front of any Google search for tickets. The promoters (and the bands in some instances) are actually making the cash by allowing the resale of 'golden circle' type tickets for huge prices, yet without having to come across as twats by letting these companies sell them. I'd rather they were just honest and say front 4 rows of tickets will be £X hundred, and we're letting 30% of the ticket go to the highest bidder, cos that's apparently what happens.

But then that doesn't make your average band look cool and like it cares about it's fans does it....



And I agree, Michael doesn't come across the best in the vid, I kept wanting him to put that idiot straight, but he kept repeating the 'double the price' argument bless him...    

[Insomaniac]

Digi, on Apr 14 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

I don't really have a problem with touts -

Digi, on Apr 14 2010, 09:12 AM, said:

I wish the need for them didn't exist and ive begrudged every second of putting money into their pockets when i've used them in the past

A bit of a contradiction there

Anyway I agree with you that the ticket companies and promoters don't give a shit about fans, but in their defence it's not in their interests and why should they. There is no benefit at all for promoters and ticket sellers to limit touting, as it's actually in their benefit to increase touting,  which is why Livenation/Ticketmaster even has it's own touting website.

[disasterplan]

DougalMcGuire, on Apr 14 2010, 10:18 AM, said:

If someone stood inside your local supermarkets 10 minutes before they opened every day (ignoring the 24 hour openers!) and bought all the milk, then set up a stall outside selling it for £5 a pint, does that make it worth more? In GCSE economics terms maybe, but in the real world the word extortion has been used already on here and it's bang on.  

Best point made in this thread so far.

[ParanoidAndroid86]

I don't have much of a problem with someone selling on ebay and making a profit from a genuine spare ticket - after all, demand is such that people will spend silly money on the most average of artists.  But buying up tickets - whether it be a tout on ebay of a site like Get Me In etc - in bulk with the sole purpose of selling them on for 2-4X face value is utterly cynical and wrong.  It really should be be made illegal - but instead the government seem to condone it by trying to impose taxes, thus profiting from it!  Perhaps the government could impose 75-80% tax on the profits made by such websites and see how much longer they wish to stay in business?

It's all very well citing basic business concepts involving supply and demand - but the simple fact is that the demand is there and the tickets would be sold at face value if given the opportunity.  The promoters should also give people more of an opportunity to return tickets.  If people could be granted a full refund minus a small admin fee, people without tickets could be on a waiting list.  It really wouldn't be too expensive to implement and a computer could probably coordinate it.

[abu hamster]

if all tickets were refundable     Whitney Houston would have no audience for the rest of her tour!


Did I mention touts are c**ts

[saltybugger]

Trying to apply normal business principles to music events (or other cultural ones) is wrong, everybody knows it's a heavily distorted market with or without touts. If we were going to accept that some tickets are going to go at above face value then I think an official auction system on a certain percentage of tickets for an event  wouild be better. This could be run by the normal primary ticketing companies so at least its out in the open and the profit could still go to bands, etc rather than middlemen.

[lofichic]

Redwinevino, on Apr 13 2010, 11:53 PM, said:

Yeah the fans, things happen people have to cancel




Up until a certain date



It wouldn't matter as you could sell it on?

For a paltry £4.95 you can protect yourself against any circumstances besides changing your mind on a whim with ticket insurance. I'm paying £6 in insurance flying to Germany and back for the same amount of time. ME has done everything possible to protect the ticket buyer over the tout. Far less people end up losing far less money than in the previous system.

[st00ka]

vespa, on Apr 14 2010, 12:19 AM, said:

i have to admit touts who buy bulk tickets online, are good business men and they buy wisely on gigs which will sell out and they can make a profit on!

Arms dealers are good business men the buy arms wisely and selll them to unstable tin pot dictators and bonkers rebels hell bent on causing mayhem and make a lovely profit.

[lofichic]

vespa, on Apr 14 2010, 01:43 AM, said:

Companies aren't allowed to buy up tickets, so don't know where you got that one from! we're talking about touts not the likes of seatwave etc!

my point is when people sell tickets for more then face value, they are only valuable as the person bidding on them wants them to be!!!

Like i missed out on the Led Zeppelin ticket lottery but to to me they are easily worth 10 times more then the 70 or 80 quid face value and i would have happily paid the 750 price tag on them!!! to whomever had a spare one!

Like i said in a earlier post the only way to curb people purposely going out there to buy more to make a profit is to get the law changed and concert organisers to change the terms and conditions on the ticket to prohibit the resale of tickets for more then face value!

You can do all the moaning you want you'll never change a thing, Glastonbury is an exceptional festival which goes to further lengths to stop this but many others don't give a shit cause they sold the tickets and made the profit!!!

So before going mad at touts get mad at the people who empower them, and the same people who could easily put an end to it!!!

So by your reasoning they should get mad at you because you would pay 750 quid to get a Led Zep ticket!

I think you're missing the wider point. Most people don't have 750 to spend on tickets. It's hardly pocket money. If the system really did work like that then the rich and privileged would get advantage over the middle class who would get advantage over the working class. If 200,000 duke and lords decided to go to  Glastonbury and spend 20,000 each on a ticket, could you raise that kind of money? I couldn't. Money isn't the driving principle of Glastonbury and I don't believe it should be the driving principle of culture, specifically in this case music events. Organisers charge their fee to cover the costs of running an event and to make a profit. They price it accordingly in order to fill the venue and make a profit. The only thing touts do is cream money of the top - money they often do not channel in legal ways and thus don't pay tax on.

Touts remove money from the financial system of this country. They lead to half empty gigs - where they have gambled buying 100 tickets at 10 quid each and selling them at 50, they can afford not to sell them all. They price out average regular concert goers. Money is an exchange system. The only service touts provide is opportunist scamming. As Trent Reznor has discussed, this goes all the way to the top of larger gig systems. As Eavis gets involved to protect the consumer, so his equivalents get involved to make more money. I don't intrinsically have a problem with this, if it was done transparently, rather than allowing people to buy a ticket that has £40 printed on it that you always intended to sell for £250. That is disgusting.

All this should help us realise what an absolute hero Michael Eavis is. I am sure he has stood against significant pressure to continue to develop Glastonbury in the way he has, and I'm thankful we have Emily Eavis to continue his work for years to come.

Edited by lofichic, 14 April 2010 - 12:25 PM.

[lofichic]

st00ka, on Apr 14 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

Arms dealers are good business men the buy arms wisely and selll them to unstable tin pot dictators and bonkers rebels hell bent on causing mayhem and make a lovely profit.

See, I'm sat on a bunch of tracer bullets, 'cause I'd bought them up thinking I'd get rid of them on gumtree to Iran but then I found out they'd managed to get hold of some at face value from Italy! Shafted.

[st00ka]

lofichic, on Apr 14 2010, 01:23 PM, said:

See, I'm sat on a bunch of tracer bullets, 'cause I'd bought them up thinking I'd get rid of them on gumtree to Iran but then I found out they'd managed to get hold of some at face value from Italy! Shafted.

Don't worry, I'm sure that the rebels in the Congo would take off you hands at quite a tidy sum.  If not you could always get your mercenary mates to stage a Coup d'Etat somewhere and open yourself up a whole new market.

[DougalMcGuire]

Quote

All this should help us realise what an absolute hero Michael Eavis is. I am sure he has stood against significant pressure to continue to develop Glastonbury in the way he has, and I'm thankful we have Emily Eavis to continue his work for years to come.

+1 absolutely no doubt

[Redwinevino]

Double post

Edited by Redwinevino, 14 April 2010 - 12:48 PM.

[Redwinevino]

LondonTom, on Apr 14 2010, 02:36 AM, said:

I think the sucess of the glastonbury system and the comments for doing something about it warrants, how do you solve it then? Or do you not think its out of hand? What is actually your problem if your not going to sell on the tickets with a system that make sure you got the money you paid for the tickets back and not profit off someone elses work?


When you buy your ticket/pass off the balance there is little check box that asks if you wish to add insurance or not for £4.25 a ticket

For smaller gigs I don't think its out of hand

Aye did that, I do think that they should extend the deadline to almost the week before the festival to return. But again I will say your comment about think of it as a holiday is a very very good point

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Redwinevino, on Apr 14 2010, 01:48 PM, said:

For smaller gigs I don't think its out of hand

Aye did that, I do think that they should extend the deadline to almost the week before the festival to return. But again I will say your comment about think of it as a holiday is a very very good point

Touts outside gigs have helped out plenty of folk wanting to get rid or buy tickets and often you can get one less than face value.

As to the ticket deadline. If it was a week before it is going to be harder to get spares back into circulation.

The insurance deal is OK, but the T&C's do seem a little stringent.

edit: In saying that I asked for a ticket refund from see a few weeks back and even got the insurance back (A tenner loss isn't that bad as it just covered the booking fee and insurance anyway))

Edited by Rufus Gwertigan, 14 April 2010 - 12:54 PM.