130 replies to this topic

[eFestivals]

Cybertec, on Aug 12 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

Flounder....you seem to be ducking a lot of the issues here, concentrating on the admittedly serious and worrying allegations.....however the FACT that the organisers deemed it suitable to allow ANY security dogs on site at a festival that has hitherto had no problems, let alone to let the security personnel wander about with handcuffs, (which they may not use legally) has to be addressed..the 'Campervan Chaos' thread REQUIRES a reply...it was a total f•cking shambles.

This is the first festival I have ever taken my wife along to where I was worried about her wandering about without me.

As for the 'incident book' - who writes it?...will there be any statements from punters present?

Where were the real police? - don't believe I saw one all weekend....

Please give Flounder a break here - while the likes of you and me have returned to our normal lives, people such as him still have lots of work to do in dismantling the festival. I'm sure he'll give more time to these issues here when he has that time and when he feels he has all the available facts to hand so that he's not having to guess at bits he might not otherwise have to guess at.

While I understand that people feel there were some issues - and I'm not trying to lessen those - please do try to keep things in some sort of perspective. The dogs with security were on site all weekend yet there appears to have been only this one issue.

Outside of that, and ignoring the fact that security people can very often be grumpy arseholes whichever firm they're from and whichever festival they're at (and this is no different from all of us when at work sometimes), were they really so bad?? The only time I saw them getting involved with anything all weekend was in helping deal with people in need of medical help, and where they acted certainly no worse than I would have expected and actually a lot better than might have been expected when considering that they were sometimes dealing with people that might not have been acting in any predictable manner. They certainly didn't make any of my friends both male and female worried about what they might do.

[sazzled]

As I said before, if they were meant to be clearing us out, where were we meant to go? The tent was done up with two exits containing snarling dogs.
Approaching an aggressive dog is a stupid thing to do, but it is quite obvious that if people have been partying for 3 days there will be a real risk of something happening.

The dogs scared me and there was no way I was going anywhere near them, but I kind of hoped that they were trained to merely threaten and that the handler was in control. If they were as you say about to rip her arm off then there is no way they should be there. They should have warned people like me that this may happen. I obviously realise that dogs can be trained to rip peoples arms off, but not by professional security firms whom I believed they were.

And as for the issue about us being asked to clear out I would be happy to swear in court that I heard or saw noone. Yet had heard people the previous two nights when there were more people in there.

Security was weak and friends in Crew camping had people wondering in breaking in to there vans and stuff. Not good when they are known to be working on site till 3am. I can understand them wanting to bring in support but I guess they were (over) prepared for trouble and when they couldn't find it descended on a small gathering of people.

I guess the best thing we can all do is give feedback on where we saw security issues failing so that they can improve next year.

[rosemarymagpie]

Cybertec, on Aug 12 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

Flounder....you seem to be ducking a lot of the issues here, concentrating on the admittedly serious and worrying allegations.....however the FACT that the organisers deemed it suitable to allow ANY security dogs on site at a festival that has hitherto had no problems, let alone to let the security personnel wander about with handcuffs, (which they may not use legally) has to be addressed..the 'Campervan Chaos' thread REQUIRES a reply...it was a total f•cking shambles.

This is the first festival I have ever taken my wife along to where I was worried about her wandering about without me.

As for the 'incident book' - who writes it?...will there be any statements from punters present?

Where were the real police? - don't believe I saw one all weekend....

i agree with you on the campervan shambles. my friend told me the dog handlers were threatening kids with the dogs because the kids had walked into the wheat field o.k the kids should not have been there but to threaten to let snarling dogs onto them is below the belt

[William of Walworth]

eFestivals, on Aug 12 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

Please give Flounder a break here - while the likes of you and me have returned to our normal lives, people such as him still have lots of work to do in dismantling the festival. I'm sure he'll give more time to these issues here when he has that time and when he feels he has all the available facts to hand so that he's not having to guess at bits he might not otherwise have to guess at.

Thats a very fair pull up -- and apologies to Founder for leaping in from an non-attenders POV, he's being pretty reasonable I think and as Neil says he needs time to investigate once takedown is over.

I just thought the issues raised -- even if isolated from the general run of how security were -- sounded worryingly different from the previous 2 years, and that barbie's comments were  tad arseholeish to say the least.

And I'm VERY opposed to dogs at festivals. Rarely seen any (with security anyway) in recent years.

Edited by William of Walworth, 12 August 2008 - 02:57 PM.

[eFestivals]

William of Walworth, on Aug 12 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

I just thought the issues raised -- even if isolated from the general run of how security were -- sounded worryingly different from previus 2 years,a nd tat barbie;s comments were  tad arseholeish to say the least.

my own experience of security this year was that they were much better than two years ago. I wasn't bothered by them once, and every time I saw them around they were doing nothing I felt they shouldn't be.

And I guess what can be drawn from that is regardless of what anyone sees at any fest, another person's experience might well be vastly different. While the dogs incident sounds unpleasant, I'd guess that was an experience for a relatively small number of people and not typical for most attendees.

As for the campervan toilets thing, I've heard a number of different reasons why it happened and they can't all be true, so I won't try to presume which might be the correct one. I'd guess that at the end of the day it was a huge cock-up by someone somewhere who didn't join up all the necessary dots, cos I'm sure it wasn't done as any cost saving (there were more than enough loos around elsewhere on site, so it doesn't seem like skimping). Other festivals might not listen or try to do better next time, but I'm sure EIID will do.

Edited by eFestivals, 12 August 2008 - 03:08 PM.

[Cybertec]

I'm more than happy to give Flounder 'a break', hadn't realised he was actively involved int he takedown, so apologies due. However the campervan field shambles is not excusable on the grounds that there were 'plenty of toilets' elsewhere on site.....the fact is people were s•itting in/next to campervan walkways, to me the 'obvious' two reasons were.

a. the two toilets weren't even adequate for 'campervans only' a lot of which have on board facilities...

b. allowing the car campers access to this area vastly overloaded the limited capacity.....

I'm sure Flounder and co will do there best to improve the situation for next year, however they have left this first time customer (and by the sound of it a fair few others) not wishing to return.

[Flounder]

Right - I've spoken to both security and the festival managers. The reason everything is taking so long is I'm having to do it in a mixture of the library pc and my own - I am not ducking issues, just prioritising - apologies if it appeared that way. Efestivals will be able to confirm this, as the IP addresses used are displayed in the top right corner of each post and should be different

Firstly and let there be no doubt - the dogs were not authorised by EiiD to be used on the site for clearance .
Cybertec - there were previous problems with undesirable elements, you just weren't aware of them as they were dealt with and were off the actual arenas. The police were on site at varying times. I have no idea why security had handcuffs - however the issue with the dogs has had to take priority
Dave - I'm not disputing Elfskin's experience and I do recognise the name from elsewhere. However, we have to be able to hear everyones opinion, no matter when they joined efestivals. To be suspicious of someone with a post of one, whilst taking the opinion of another with a similarly low posting rate as gospel, is hugely biased. If we didn't care, we wouldn't be going to all this trouble.

This is what security have told us. Dogs were to patrol the perimeter - they were fully trained with experienced handlers. This was for staff and punters protection and also for the local residents. The reason security used the dogs in the bar, was because various incidents were kicking off at that point that required immediate attention. For example, despite being very clear about no naked flames on all our literature, someone was letting off fireworks in the wheat field - there were other incidents occuring which are standard for the last night of any festival when people have been drinking all weekend - the point is that they were all at once, as the site was being shut down.
Security had asked several times for the bar to be cleared, had met resistance of an unpleasant sort and made a decision to bring the dogs in. A lady in the bar went to pat one of the dogs and was told on 3 occasions not to come near the dog. She then lunged/slipped  towards the dog and the guard pushed her back to keep her away from the dog. People then took this to be an assault and a situation developed, which was dealt with by one of the guards calming everyone down and diffusing the situation.


Endorse it as previously recognised, has a good reputation,  and we take the safety of everyone from customers to local residents very seriously. Rest assured that we are and will carry on looking into this and other issues, to ensure that they never happen again. What is gutting is that there has been upset caused and until made aware of this, the festival had been the most successful yet - I've had more people shaking me by the hand and saying what a great time they're having  than frankly I would have ever expected.
I won't be posting on this issue again unless there is any more news, as I honestly don't think there's anything else I can constructively do on-line. What I do ask again though , is that if you have any first hand information, from any perspective, please email the festival and we will be able to keep a file going. This issue will be a priority at the first festival breakdown meeting.
Thankyou for the contributions.

[Interface]

What a wicked wonderful weekend - and I am so glad that I paid for 2 tickets and camper van to be bullied by intensive in your face security! I work really hard and was looking forward to a peaceful weekend meeting up with friends that I had not seen since last year.  That’s all- Endorset is one of best festies left in the UK - this time it was not!!!  The vibe was there but unfortunate I do not want to be oppressed or feel like I am in a prison.  Every time I saw your security I put my hands up to show that I had nothing in them?  I do not want to have feel like that - and I do not want my children to do that either.  

I mean - When has anybody every been stabbed at Endorset- does this mean that this is NO LONGER a family festival. Should those with children BE WARNED that Endorset has a knife problem! and the dogs!! I will not recommend anyone to bring their children on to a site that is patrolled by incompetent security staff with vicious animals - a dog can rip a Childs face to shreds in second!!!!.  
Unlike last year and the year before I felt that the security 2008 were looking for trouble.

I witnessed 3 incidences that were rough handled.  I saw one guy on the Sunday evening - young chap we had been talking to him earlier that day soft spoken .  5 security staff got hold of him around 10.00pm by the main stage and I honestly thought they were going to break his back.  I have 5 years medic training!  He was bent facing up over a half fence two of the security had his legs held down on the floor and two others were pulling him backwards- this is really unacceptable behaviour even the police are NOT allowed to do this.  Four individuals ran to his aid they equally concerned for his back (broken spines do not fix you know) The security were aggressive and really quite abusive - they pulled this poor lad up flicked him over and put handcuffs on him and wrenched his arms up his back - and dragged him away?  
I mean did he have a gun or a knife - what would make security act in such a way - come on!

Handcuffs and pepper spray - ?????????????????????  Will it be TEAR GAS CANISTORS, TAZORS crowd control next year?? –What about riot shields and watchtowers??
Who are we being protected from - did you expect an attack of some description?  How come the festie down the road do not have those problems - they have subtle security who are there to try and make everyone have a nice time not to try and spoil their fun.
Roll up Roll up 75.00 for getting a beating - hmmmmmm see the bands through the swollen slits once known as eyes courtesy of ESP security - sorry it was that bad.!  

ENDORSET what are you endorsing ? what should we do next year - should I bring a STAB vest to protect myself just in case the security decide that they should leap on me. Perhaps we should all look to the ground - no jumping up to the music no clapping (could be misconstrued) Scary mean men - out to cause trouble!  These are those we do not want at our festival isnt it!!

What is really ironic in you main programme the pages that showed the line up - your background picture is of riot police storming a social building- is this where you got your idea from I wonder!

Sorry but is the truth I speak!!

[Flounder]

Pepper spray? Stabbings???? What ARE you talking about?????

The incident I will make sure is looked into, but as I've said before, alarmist posts will be taken for what they are and disregarded. Clear information however will be gratefully received.

[elfskin]

Flounder, on Aug 12 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

That does cut both ways - look at the joining date of the people making the allegations - the report also ties in  with what security have said. However, I want this cleared up and in order for this to be sorted, both sides have to be heard fairly and would be appreciative if posts like "we squared off to them and fought the goons" - or whatever words were used weren't put up - it just makes you sound as aggressive as the allegations against security and really isn't helping your point to be put forward. I need clear information over this and thanks to everyone who has posted with whatever take on the situation.

Firstly, what has my joining date got to do with my credibility. What I saw was completely out of order, there are some very serious issues involving public safety to be considered by everyone involved in Festival organisation in light of this incident and I resent my integrity or motives being called in to question. I have been going to Festivals since 1984 and have never seen anything like this. Flounder, if you want to PM me then I will give you the names of some of our mutual friends, some in the bands that played this weekend and some in the crew and traders, I am sure that all of them will vouch for the fact that I am not a trouble maker or someone who would invent allegations.

I never said that " we squared off and fought the goons " and none of us were aggressive. All we wanted was for Security to back off with the dogs. None of us threw a punch or even touched any of the Security, we just stood our ground in front of them while they screamed in our faces. You tell me this, if they were in control and on top of the situation then why did the Security Manager pull them off the instant he arrived on the scene. My mate was eyeball to eyeball with a bloke twice his size, eyes bulging, screaming in his face and he never even raised an arm, just eyeballed him with a big smile on his face, cool as a cucumber.

I only saw the dogs on site on Sunday and there is already one post on this thread stating an incident where one of the dogs lunged at a child in the cornfield.

The use of attack dogs at a family Festival where children are running around is just wrong in any circumstance. You were very lucky on Sunday night, people could have got seriously injured.

Security was fine last year and apart from this shambles was fine this year. We had the van searched for bottles at the gate by Security and he was a thoroughly decent sort of bloke, friendly and chatty and wished us a good Festival when he had finished. Had no problems with Security on the gate either, saw them helping people and generally going a good job. Other people have posted on here about the intimidation from the two dog handlers and it was just them and the meat head that was screaming in my mates face that were involved in this incident. The Security manager who pulled them off and diffused the situation was a true professional, hats off to him, to come into a situation like that and within seconds be on top of it, on his own was nothing short of miraculous. His cool head and awesome de-escalation skills are to be applauded, he was a credit to his firm.

What happened on Sunday night was entirely caused by attack dogs being used in completely the wrong circumstances, by incompetent handlers. People on other Festival forums are as horrified as I am about the use of attack dogs by private Security firms at family Festivals, if you want a dog and dog handler for crowd control then for crying out loud get a Police dog and handler, at least we will know that our children will be safe.

This issue needs serious attention, ticket buying punters dont want attack dogs and civilians with handcuffs at Festivals and already after this weekend people are already voting with their feet. I think it was a huge mistake letting ESP use attack dogs on site.

This issue needs a higher profile across all the Festival forums, I think you organisers need to hear a ground swell of the ticket buying publics opinion. It was the first time I have ever seen attack dogs and handcuffs at any Festival and I hope to make it the last.

[elfskin]

The reason security used the dogs in the bar, was because various incidents were kicking off at that point that required immediate attention. For example, despite being very clear about no naked flames on all our literature, someone was letting off fireworks in the wheat field - there were other incidents occuring which are standard for the last night of any festival when people have been drinking all weekend - the point is that they were all at once, as the site was being shut down.
Security had asked several times for the bar to be cleared, had met resistance of an unpleasant sort and made a decision to bring the dogs in. A lady in the bar went to pat one of the dogs and was told on 3 occasions not to come near the dog. She then lunged/slipped towards the dog and the guard pushed her back to keep her away from the dog. People then took this to be an assault and a situation developed, which was dealt with by one of the guards calming everyone down and diffusing the situation.

TOTAL BOLLOCKS !!!

What the f**k have fireworks in the wheatfield got to do with out of control dogs and an assault in the beer tent.

Security were not in the tent until the dogs burst in, there was no unpleasantness until a girl nearly got bit in the face and another girl was assaulted.

The girl was not told three times to not come near the dog, she just approached the handler and was punched away. She did not slip she was assaulted.

I saw everything that happened from the dog attacking the couple on the table to the guy with the dog assaulting the girl and everything that followed.

Am I the only one who smells bullshit !!!

[greeneyes1980]

yeah but there is the problem, you aint gonna get security to admit shit and they will have a reason for everything.

[eFestivals]

elfskin, on Aug 12 2008, 05:27 PM, said:

The use of attack dogs at a family Festival where children are running around is just wrong in any circumstance. You were very lucky on Sunday night, people could have got seriously injured.

sorry, but "attack dogs", and "lucky"??? While I understand that you're pissed off at what happened, you're certainly stretching what you say to the limits of credibility. You say "attack" dogs when I would think you have no proper knowledge of their training or their handler's training, and surely "attack" dogs would be attacking, and if they're not "attacking" then it's surely not down to things being "lucky" but down to those dogs being properly restrained - you cannot have it both ways.

What happened in the bar sounds plain wrong if I take every word of what you say as things that actually happened. However, the security did not - from what you have said - set out to use violence against anyone, and the one act of theirs that you might consider violence you (maybe it was someone else?) are also able to acknowledge as being for the better protection (as compared to getting perhaps chomped by the dog she was moving towards) of the person involved. And the dogs were properly restrained and not set on anybody; dogs bark, that's what they do.

While you might want to see those things as over the top, things would have surely been very different if the security were out of control as you also state. If they were out of control then there'd have been punching and there'd have possibly been people getting bitten. Neither of these things happened, from what you have said.

You or someone has said that the woman who was pushed was moving to within an unsafe distance from possibly agitated dogs; does that person's responsibility for their own actions in doing this (surely a thing most kids know before they're five?) not come into this somewhere too?

I'm not trying to justify anything that shouldn't have happened, but similarly perhaps you should apply a little perspective and not over-state things.

Edited by eFestivals, 12 August 2008 - 05:08 PM.

[Interface]

Flounder, on Aug 12 2008, 05:18 PM, said:

Pepper spray? Stabbings???? What ARE you talking about?????

The incident I will make sure is looked into, but as I've said before, alarmist posts will be taken for what they are and disregarded. Clear information however will be gratefully received.

Flounder I am not alarmist- quite the opposite in fact.  The riot police have stab vets and use CS gas for riot incidences and crowd control such as the picture you used in the programme ok -  there is a long history of such occasion and these are associated with violent clashes aimed at the police - the miners riots a classic example

  But really Endorset! Why were ESP security walking around in stab vests?  I honestly thought that you had a problem with knives and guns on site! What else are we to think?  And yes ESP were threatening individuals with pepper spray this was witnessed by a number of individuals.

I am sorry but I have no reason to speak of such things if I did not know them to be true! Perhaps ESP did not divulge to you there security systems in detail- I must say that I thought that handcuffing a person was illegal (civil liberties) unless you were a police officer! Were they undercover police officers?  If so perhaps a police uniform would have been a sufficient deterrent for those who might wobble about drunk and maybe answer back good forbid!  Even Community police are not allowed to restrain in such a way!

Perhaps an idea - you might put up on the site exactly what these people are allowed to do with us - I was very concerned with the big black gloves approach! Civil rights and all that!  I was with a very large group of folk and we are all not really sure about coming back - which is a shame really because ENDORSET is my favourite festie and the only one which I am prepared to cancel all for!

you know my email and if you send me a mail I will be more than happy to discuss with you my observations
PLEASE BRING back the TRUE ENDORSET 2009

[eFestivals]

elfskin, on Aug 12 2008, 05:39 PM, said:

What the f**k have fireworks in the wheatfield got to do with out of control dogs and an assault in the beer tent.

there are a limited number of security personnel. If some are dealing with one incident then they're not available to deal with something else, meaning that others might get assigned to the second task.

C'mon - stop being blinded by your red mist and apply the same common sense you're saying was lacking at EIID over one seemingly isolated incident over a whole weekend.

[greeneyes1980]

gotta say i agree with Neil on this

[eFestivals]

Interface, on Aug 12 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

Why were ESP security walking around in stab vests?

you want to feel safe at a festival with great security. Don't you think that the security are also allowed to feel safe while they go about their job?

Whatever other valid gripes you might have, this isn't to me a valid gripe of any sort. You might as well go about saying that all builders want to kick your head in just cos they're wearing steel toe-capped boots.

[greeneyes1980]

well no not quite i mean if they were all riot geared up you would take the opinion they were ready for a riot kinda thing, is what i am getting.

but i dont really see how you can complain about vests. as has been shown at T unfortunatly some people carry knives and security are the most likely to be on the arse end of it

[William of Walworth]

I recognise that this year I can't know more than what I read on line, and that any individual account will be that of one person with one perspective.

But my direct interest in this is that I want to come back to Endorse It next year. And I will, for sure, but I remain very sceptical that dogs are needed at Festivals under any circumstances, and my view would be that their use runs the risk of inflaming situations, and might run the risk making matters worse, and could easily be counterproductive. OK point taken that this beer tent situation may have been a one off, but in the face of it at least, it does sound like things weren't handled the best they could to say the least.

Dogs, especially counterproductive if -- I stress if --- their handlers lose it, as MAY have happened this time at one point.

I repeat that the last time I saw Security with dogs at any festival** was a very long time ago. Their use seems entirely unnecessary surely?

**(as opposed to dogs with Police -- where whatever ones' doubts about sniffer dogs, or 'crowd control' dogs they are always trained and always with trained handlers AFAIK)


I do acknowledge that almost all accounts stress that  almost all Security were fine almost all the time at Endorse It this year. It shouldn't be that difficult for the few problems to be ironed out and I have real condidence in Flounder and the other organisers that they will be.

I reckon an undertaking that personnel do not carry handcuffs and that dogs should not be used next year (are they REALLY needed for Perimeter patrol even????), and a reiteration of the need for Security to be as low key and chilled as possible whenever possible**, would be more than sufficient.

Most Security at Endorse It are well aware of this need as far as I've seen -- last year mainly, and also, as far as I could see, in 2006 too. There's not much that's need to be straightened out.

** (ie except in REALLY extreme situations, and was last Sunday night really that? I only ask ... )

ETA on reread of the above  : Sorry, apols to Flounder if this reads like me being just an arsey punter who wasn't even there, telling an experienced organiser how to run his festival. I'm just trying to be constructive is all,  in the hope that what's good about Endorse It (all of it IME, last year!) will be repeated in 2009 ....

I love this festival and wish it the very best, and want to come back year after year,  it's not nice to read of even one occasion where things may have gone wrong.

Edited by William of Walworth, 12 August 2008 - 05:31 PM.

[eFestivals]

William of Walworth, on Aug 12 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

Dogs, especially counterproductive if -- I stress if --- their handlers lose it, as MAY have happened this time at one point.

if the handlers had lost it then we wouldn't be having the conversations we're having.

They didn't lose it: no one was attacked in this incident, by either the security staff or the dogs.

That isn't saying what has been reported here was justifiable, if it happened exactly as stated by some. But then again it didn't happen exactly as stated by some, because they've used emotive language to over-state the incident as much as they possibly can.

William of Walworth, on Aug 12 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

** (ie except in REALLY extreme situations, and was last Sunday night really that? I only ask ... )

while it's impossible for anyone who wasn't there to know whether it was an extreme situation or not, it's also - from what's been said by those complaining the loudest - impossible for them to really know what happened either.

Security say (as posted by flounder) they'd tried to clear the bar to no effect before this incident happened; some of those inside the bar say no attempt was made to clear the bar before this incident happened. One of these is obviously false. But which one??

I fully accept that security have a vested interest in their version; but the fact is the other side also have a vested interest in their version (tho I'll accept less of one).

But on top of that, is it really possible for anyone to authoritatively say that something they didn't see didn't happen? It's possible that security did try to clear the bar to no effect, and if they did try to clear the bar to no effect then it's very possible that some people in the bar didn't see them trying to clear the bar, because if they had done they'd have possibly left. Others had obviously left - why did these others leave? These are thing we will perhaps never know for sure.